ATU666 – Trail Accessibility and Indiana DNR with Ric Edwards

Hi, this is Ric Edwards. I’m the ADA Director for the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, and this is your Assistive Technology Update.

Hello and welcome to your Assistive Technology Update, a weekly dose of information that keeps you up to date on the latest developments in the field of technology designed to assist individuals with disabilities and special needs. I’m your host Josh Anderson with the INDATA Project at Easterseals Crossroads in beautiful Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to episode 666 of Assistive Technology Update. It is scheduled to be released on March 1st, 2024. On today’s show, we are super excited to have Ric Edwards, the ADA Director for the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, and he’s here to tell us about some great new accessibility things, including trackchairs at some of the great parks and trails here in Indiana. We thank you for listening and let’s go ahead and get on with the show.

Listeners, spring is just around the corner, and a great thing to do here in Indiana is to enjoy our miles and miles of trails in our many parks. Well, today we are super excited to welcome Ric Edwards from the Indiana Department of Natural Resources on, and he’s going to tell us about how this wonderful outdoor activity is going to be a whole lot more inclusive and accessible around here. Ric, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

I am excited to get into, well, talking about all this stuff. But before we do that, could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Sure. I am, as I said, the ADA Director for the Indiana Department of Natural Resources. For a little bit of background reference, I was involved in an automobile accident when I was 15 years old and broke my neck at about C-five and six, which is a relatively high break, won’t go into the long story of it, but the bottom line is, I’ve been using a wheelchair for a number of years, we’ll put it that way, and have had personal experience, obviously, with some of the accessibility issues that face a number of folks trying to access a number of places. Landed this job after having been appointed as the State’s ADA coordinator back when the ADA was first enacted about 30 some odd years ago, and trained a number of the agency coordinators that were established back then and they said, “Well, we’ve got an agency coordinator, why do we need a state coordinator? Let them do their thing.” And I said, “Okay.” So I kind of worked myself out of a job, I guess.

So I was looking around the landscape and the Department of Natural Resources ADA coordinator was kind of interested in going back to the forestry division that he was involved in, and he said, “Will you come work for us?” I said, “Less responsibilities, more pay, I think I’ll do that. Yeah.” Chance to go out to the properties and see Indiana in a way that many folks don’t get to. So about 17, 18 years ago, I was appointed as the ADA coordinator for the Department of Natural Resources, and we looked around at a lot of the things that Indiana DNR does.

And when you think of DNR, you usually think of parks, of course, and there is so much more to the department that folks don’t realize. We’ve got a division of forestry that has some public properties. We’ve got a division of fish and wildlife that has some really cool properties out there, as well as, of course, the parks. And the parks involve everything from Indiana Dunes State Park to Hovey Lake, which is the little dangly thing that hangs off the bottom of the State of Indiana, and everything in between. We’ve got some trails that are accessible, some trails that are not. And to your point of going out and participating in those trails, I looked at the best way to try and make those accessible to people with mobility disabilities and thought that it would be good to provide a device that somebody could transfer into or step into depending on their disability, and be able to experience some things that are maybe not as easily experienced from a regular wheelchair.

Nice. And that’s the reason that we kind of had you on the show here today. So can you kind of tell us about the accessible trackchair program?

Sure. Well, way back in the day, one of the first properties that I really wanted to provide some access to was the Indiana Dunes State Park. And as you can imagine, there’s nothing but sand there, which is not real conducive to a manual wheelchair. So we looked around, there’s a longer story to this, but the short story is I went up to the Dunes after contacting a place that provided a trackchair. And then another guy actually here in Indiana who made a three-wheel, he said it was an accessible wheelchair, and met with them and took the trails, took the chair out on some of the Dunes and tooled around a little bit in them and decided that the first one that we would get was a trackchair. It was made by Innovation In Motion, and it was called the IRV 2000. And it had tracks on it, but they were belt tracks, and it did really well in the sand.

My criteria for it was to first of all, make sure that it was something that would do well in the sand and something that most people would be able to get into and operate without a whole lot problem and operate it independently. You’ve seen those balloon tire chairs-

Yeah.

… that are out there. The problem with those is that you’ve got to have somebody pushing you. You cannot operate those independently. And there’s actually one, it’s called a debug that will operate independently, but it’s got smaller balloon tires and it can’t go in the water and that sort of thing. So we opted out on those initially, again, because of the lack of independence of the operation of that chair. I felt a little like a potted plant when I got in one of those, somebody just pushing me-

Yeah.

… out onto the beach and sit there. And then in order to get off the beach, you had to have somebody come and bring you in, if you will. So I was not a real fan of those initially. I had some input from some other folks with disabilities, and we may wind up getting some of those down the road. But at this point, I was really focused on trying to make sure that we had something that would allow individuals with mobility disabilities to be able to be independent in their movement.

The IRV 2000 could not go up some of the Dunes, but it certainly had no trouble on the beach. The three-wheel chair, actually, when we tried it out got stuck. And so he pushed it out of the breadth that it was in, but I said, “That’s not a viable option for folks with mobility disabilities.” So we want something that’s less likely to get dug down into the sand. So at any rate, that was the first one that we got. I don’t remember if I’ve got a date for when we bought that thing. But at any rate, the Dunes, like I said, was the first one. We then became aware of a number of other chairs. The X8 is one. It’s a four-wheel-drive chair, and we’ve got one of those at Charlestown and some other places. I’ll actually send you the list of the places that we’ve got trail chairs-

Yes.

… because they’re not everywhere. We’ve got about 15, 16 properties right now that have them. The most recent was one that we got from a grant from a car company at Potato Creek, and it’s an Action Trackchair. The trackchairs actually have a tank track on them, and all these are joystick-operated so that you don’t have a whole lot of complicated buttons and gears and things like that to operate. So the Action Trackchair is a little wider than a doorway, so it’s not really designed to go into a building. It’s designed for trails and off-road and that sort of thing. And we’re asking folks to stay, obviously, on trails because that’s what we’ve designed and we are trying to protect the natural environment. That’s one of the tasks that my job is trying to balance accessibility while preserving the natural resources.

So we don’t want them to take these things out into areas that are sensitive areas or going to tear up the property or anything like that. So at any rate, we ask them to stay on the trail and it doesn’t cost anything. We ask them to provide an ID or a driver’s license or something that we can go back if they decide to take off with it or leave it out in the middle of the woods or something like that. So other than that, some of the properties have asked that people call ahead of time. I think it’s always a good idea to call ahead of time to make sure the thing is charged up and somebody hasn’t reserved it for an event. We had one at the Dunes that a lady wanted to have a wedding on the beach, and one of the party was in a wheelchair. And so they asked if they could use the trackchair. And so they were really thrilled about that to be able-

Yes.

… to have that person participate and be there out on the beach with the wedding party and not have to contend with the regular chair and having to deal with all that. At any rate, there’ve been a lot of good stories about the trackchair program. And like I said, I will get you a list of those that are out there. We’re planning on putting that online very shortly as well to let folks know where they’re at and how to go about reserving them.

Very cool. We’ll make sure to put that down in the show notes. And, Ric, while you’re kind of telling that, I know you’ve got quite a few stories and I love the wedding one, but could you share maybe another one or two that just comes to mind of folks, just maybe how they’ve kind of used the trackchair and how it’s been? Well, I mean, I can only imagine. I’ve traveled quite a few of the trails around Indiana, but I’m always amazed by how many there are. But maybe do you have a couple stories that you can share with us?

Sure. We had a guy that actually had been a frequent trail user down at O’Bannon Woods, and he had to go to the hospital for some reason. And I think we’ve got a picture of him within a day of leaving the hospital. He was out on the trail using that chair because he wanted to get back out into nature and experience that. And so he and his, I think there were probably three or four other people with him, his wife and some other folks, that as soon as he got out of the hospital, they asked what he wanted to do. He said, “I’d really like to go out in the Woods.” And so he popped in the chair, and I think, if I remember right, his foot was still bandaged up and he was still contending with whatever had put him in the hospital initially, but he had a chance to experience that. We had a very interesting story how we came about with the mats. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the beach mats that we have at the Dunes.

Yeah, tell our listeners about those, for sure.

They’re actually plates that go down on the beach in a path. I didn’t really like these initially because it limits the area where an individual can go in their standard chair, but it gets folks to the water, and there are a couple of cross areas that allow them to go out onto the beach and actually experience that. I don’t mean to highlight nothing, but the Dunes. It’s certainly not that we don’t have other properties. We’ve got other properties with beach properties or beach areas.

But the story at the Dunes was very interesting because there was a gal who was in the Make-A-Wish program, and they asked her, “What would you like?” And she said, “I’m good. I don’t need anything.” They came back to her, as I understand it, three times and said, “Hey, we really want to do something for you. You qualify. You had this situation and the Make-A-Wish Foundation would like to be able to help you out.” And she said, “Well, we use it for something else, for something that I’m interested in.” And they asked her what it was. She said, “I’d really like to provide some of these mats for the Dunes to be able to get out onto the beach.” And between the Make-A-Wish Foundation and the friends up there at Indiana Dunes, they wound up with a really nice mat system where-

Nice.

… you can go down to the water, you can go across the beach. And what we found out was that the public in general appreciated the mats as much as people with disabilities because walking in hot sand sometimes is a bit of a challenge. These things stayed pretty cool, and it also served as a reference point for parents who wanted to be able to tell their kids, “You go down to the first junction here and make a right, and that’s where we’re going to be.” So that plus the fact that anybody who had a situation where they needed EMTs could go out there with their gurneys and not have to worry about getting dug down into the sand as well-

Nice.

… and people pulling strollers and thermoses and all sorts of things like that. So a lot of the things that I get to do we find are beneficial, not just for people with disabilities, but also for a lot of the public in general, which is, obviously, very rewarding for everybody. We do have a lot of accessibility out there that people would not assume was accessible. I just was down at the Patoka Reservoir, which is a beautiful property, if you’ve not been down there, that has miles of asphalt trail that you can spend a couple of days down there on that go around ponds, around the lake down there-

Nice.

… it goes along the beachfront that has a brand new accessible playground there. We’ve done a lot of work with of all things vault toilets. We’ve put in over 100 vault toilets this year from deferred maintenance money as well as some other funds. And these vault toilets, they’re still vault toilets, don’t get me wrong, they’re still going to stink. They don’t stink nearly as bad as the wooden ones that used to. And also, all of them are accessible.

Nice.

They have grab bars in them and the turning radiuses and all that sort of thing. They’re a whole lot nicer. They’re concrete block. You may have heard of the tornado that we had down at McCormick’s Creek recently. We put three of those, I think a number of those down before that tornado hit, and at this point, that’s about the only thing that’s left standing is the accessible vault toilets. So they’re very sturdy, they’re accessible, and all of them are on accessible routes to get to them.

So we tried to focus a lot of energy and effort to make sure that the things that we’re doing now are going to be accessible. There’s a couple of new cabins that we’re doing, a couple of Brown County, a couple of some of our forest crew properties. I would encourage folks to, like I said, if you have a question about one of the properties specifically, contact the property office and ask them about accessibility because we’re doing a lot of focusing on that recently.

Ric, if our listeners want to find out a little bit more maybe about the Indiana Department of Natural Resources or maybe some of the accommodations and things that are available, what’s a good way for them to find that information?

Well, one of the things that we’re actually working on is I resisted having an accessibility guide out there because I didn’t want people to miss any opportunities that we have out there. We’ve got so many absolutely great properties that may not necessarily be completely 100% accessible, but a lot of folks with a variety of disabilities would be able to benefit from them. You’ve seen a lot of the guys from Iraq and Iran coming back, and they don’t want to sit on the front porch anymore and [inaudible 00:19:30] baskets. They want to go out there and shoot Bambi and do all the other things that they used to do when they were not injured. And so a lot of them are doing things in chairs that some people would say, “Well, you can’t do that in a wheelchair.” Well, they’re like, “Hold my beer, here we go.”

So we want to be able to allow them to be able to experience some of those areas that are maybe not quite fully accessible, but certainly could be utilized by somebody with a little bit of effort. So I resisted having an accessibility guide out there, but what we decided was we’re going to focus on those things like the trackchair program, like the maps, like the changes that we made to some of the trails out there to focus on those things that are accessible with the caveat that you can get some other places with a little bit of effort if you’ve got the ability or the trail chair to be able to access those areas.

We’re working on a trail right now at McCormick’s Creek, for example, in Spencer where the accessibility of it is not going to be like you’re walking on a street or someplace downtown. You are in a natural environment that is a little bit hazardous. We’ve got some drop-off areas that you get off of those things and you’re going to have problems, but the expectation is that you’re not going to be perfectly safe in some of these properties. You’re going to have nature to contend with. So we want them to be able to experience that in as natural environment, obviously, as safely as we can, but understand that there are going to be some areas where you are going to have a challenge. So many people want that challenge, many people want that natural experience, and so we wanted to be able to do that.

So what I’m saying is we’re going to be putting some things on the web, we’re going to have some materials that is going to highlight some of the accessibility features, but I would caution anybody listening to make sure that you don’t focus solely on those because you’ll miss a lot of the things that are pretty accessible and pretty amazing when you see some of the falls at Clifty Falls, when you see some of the overlooks at Brown County, some of the beach areas that Wabash. There are a lot of properties out there that you can see some pretty amazing and incredible things. And it does take a little bit of effort, a little bit of work to get there.

Awesome. Well, we will definitely kind of put them. And I love the way that you put that there’s still that, I mean, maybe dangerous not the right word. I think you used the word there’s some kind of treacherous parts. But I mean, that is kind of part of the fun. So I’m glad that individuals who may kind of have a disability still do get experience as someone who is able-bodied would experience it as well. So you’re working to make it accessible, but not make it, I don’t want to use the word boring, but I’m going to use the word boring, but not take away the joy and the reason that you go out there and actually access the trails of the parks.

Sure. Yep. We are the Department of Natural Resources, not the Department of Built Environment. So we want to make sure that we stay as natural and as nature-filled as possible.

Awesome. Well, that is super cool. Well, Ric, we’ll put some information down in the show notes so folks can easily kind of find out some more information about our parks and maybe where some of those things are kind of available. And then, Ric, if someone has questions maybe about accessibility or things like that, is there a way for them to reach out and maybe contact someone and talk about those things?

Absolutely, Josh. And I appreciate that because one of my bones of contention, if you will, is that we’re doing a lot of this stuff for people with disabilities. And if you don’t go out there and do it, our property managers are going to say, “Well, nobody’s ever used it. Nobody’s ever come out there and seen it.” We purchased a number of elevated blinds for people who wanted to shoot from up above or hunt from up above. Nobody ever accessed them. Part of it, I’m sure, is that nobody asked, it wasn’t as advertised as it should have been. But I tell peers with disabilities, “Get out there, experience it.” We’ve got a lot of areas that many of the population don’t know about. So I’d like to encourage our folks with disabilities out there to get out and experience it. To do that, if you’ve got any questions, and I always tell our people, I’d much rather hear from people with complaints than hear from their attorneys on Monday morning.

True.

So you can reach me by email, which is redwards@dnr.in.gov, or my phone number, which is (317) 232-4145, and I’ll even give you my cell phone because, like I said, I’d much rather hear from folks with complaints than then hear from their attorneys. So my cell phone number is (317) 979-8893. If I’m not answering that, it means that I’m on the road somewhere or in a place around Spring Mill where you don’t get a signal anyway.

I’m just glad there’s still some places where you don’t get signal in Indiana, because that’s always been some of my favorite part about going and getting on the trails and getting out there, is that just getting away from all that other stuff. Ric, I can’t thank you enough for coming on today and talking about what’s probably one of my favorite things to do in the spring and summer, which is just go out and enjoy the great natural things that Indiana does have to offer and just making that more accessible so that more Hoosiers can get out there and really get to enjoy it. So thank you for the work you do and thank you so much for coming on the show and telling us all about it.

Thank you for spreading the word and I appreciate it.

Do you have a question about assistive technology? Do you have a suggestion for someone we should interview on Assistive Technology Update? If so, call our listener line at (317) 721-7124. Send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org or shoot us a note on Twitter @INDATAproject. Our captions and transcripts for the show are sponsored by the Indiana Telephone Relay Access Corporation or InTRAC. You can find out more about InTRAC at relayindiana.com.

A special thanks to Nikol Prieto for scheduling our amazing guests and making a mess of my schedule. Today’s show was produced, edited, hosted, and thought over by yours truly. The opinions expressed by our guests are their own and may or may not reflect those of the INDATA Project, Easterseals Crossroads, our supporting partners or this host. This was your Assistive Technology Update, and I’m Josh Anderson with the INDATA Project at Easterseals Crossroads in beautiful Indianapolis, Indiana. We look forward to seeing you next time. Bye-bye.