ATU721 – Tactonom with Klaus Hars

Hi, this is Klaus Hars, and I’m the co-founder of Inventivio, home of Tactonom, and this is your Assistive Technology Update.

Hello, and welcome to your Assistive Technology Update, a weekly dose of information that keeps you up to date on the latest developments in the field of technology designed to assist individuals with disabilities and special needs.

I’m your host, Josh Anderson, with the INDATA Project at Easterseals Crossroads in beautiful Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to episode 721 of Assistive Technology Update. It is scheduled to be released on March 21st, 2025.

On today’s show we are super excited to be joined by Klaus Hars. He’s here to tell us all about Tactonom and how it can help individuals with visual impairments access graphical information.

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Listeners, I had the pleasure of seeing the Tactonom in action at ATIA, and you may have heard some of our staff talk about it on our ATIA discussion episodes. Well, today we’re excited to welcome Klaus Hars to the show to tell us about Tactonom and how it can assist individuals with visual impairments in accessing graphic learning content using touch and sound. Klaus, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me.

Yeah, I am excited to get into talking about Tactonom, but before we do that, could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Yes. My name is Klaus. I’m German as you can hear from my accent, I presume. I am one of the two co-founders of Inventivio, and what we’re trying to do is enable blind and visually-impaired people to access information in an easier fashion than today.

And what motivated my brother, who founded the company with me, and myself was that we have two blind people in the family. So it’s the business, but it’s a bit more important than that to us.

Got a little bit of a personal note to it, which I know can definitely help with the creativity and everything else. So onto why we have you on the show, which is the Tactonom. So I guess start us off with just what is it?

The Tactonom is an assistive learning device that enables blind people to understand graphical information. And when you think as a sighted person, from the first day in school until graduation, if you think about the number of graphics you use from day one till graduation, that’s about 25,000 graphics.

For blind people, it is in the same time span you have somewhere between 80 and 150 graphics in your whole time in school. And that’s a problem, because if you do not have access to graphical information, you just don’t have the same learning content as everybody else, and that’s unfair, and we want to fix that.

And we do this with the Tactonom Reader. And what the system does, it has a camera integrated in the system that first looks at a QR code, loads additional information into the system, and then detects your fingers. With that, I can detect where your finger is and explain exactly what you have under your fingertips.

And that is super important because it’s really hard if you do not have the help a sighted person to explain what you have in front of you and under your fingertips. It’s hard to understand.

And we enable you, with this camera-driven user interaction, we enable you to understand and work with graphics without the help of anyone else, and that’s the magic of the Tactonom Reader. And once you know where the finger is and you have additional information, you can start to play with that.

We can guide you to anywhere where you want to be in a graphic. We can have the system ask you questions that you respond to by pointing at results. We can work with 3D models because the camera detects the position of the finger and it’s not a haptic screen. We can have apps that help you to learn. We can make learning fun for blind people. And on top of that, we provide thousands and thousands of learning graphics for free, and that is to solve the problem that there’s just not enough learning content for blind and visually-impaired people.

Ah, that is absolutely awesome. Klaus, as we kind of look at this as we talk about graphics and things like that, what kinds of graphic learning content can be conveyed to the user?

Well, basically everything that is visual today can also be made accessible for blind people. And for us, what is super important is start early. What we need to enable blind people to do is really read with their fingertips. This is hard. And it’s hard because it’s not enough to have the sense of touch developed, you also need to ensure that your brain is able to extract from the tactile information. That’s the hard part.

Mm-hmm.

And the sooner in life you start to work with tactile graphics, the more your brain adapts to the situation and enables you to understand tactile information.

My example is always if you think of the analog clock where you have the 12 o’clock, six o’clock, and so on, for blind people that’s important in mobility. But if you think back as a sighted person how difficult it was to understand the concept of the clock, it takes weeks and months to understand. Now, if you’re blind, you first have to understand the structure and then the concept. That’s not twice as hard, it’s 10 times as hard.

Yeah.

So the good thing about the human brain, and we call this neuroplasticity, meaning the brain can adapt to the task as you pose it, you can train this capacity, and the earlier you do do this, the better you become at it. That’s why we say start early.

We have a lot of content for young learners as of the age of three years so that on the first day in school, you have the chance of being hopefully on par with your classmates. And then everything you need in school from mathematics. For instance, we are in a project funded by the European Union that creates 1,250 math graphics from first grade to graduation that will be put into the database until the summer so that you are basically set to do math. We do the same for biology, and there’s just tons of content that you will find in the database.

Oh, that’s great. That’s great, because yeah, you brought up two very big ones. With math, trying to just explain what a graph might look like of an equation is so hard. But yeah, if you can feel it and hear it and actually move your hand and be able to get that information, it’s so much different.

Or if, you mentioned biology, I mean, try to explain what a Golgi apparatus is and all the different pieces and parts that might go into it. Whereas if you can feel it, touch it, and hear everything, it’s just so much more information and so much richer, so much probably easier to grasp.

And think of, you can also have a 3D model, say, of the human heart, which you can put onto the surface of the tactile reader, touch it, and you can put your finger onto the 3D model and it explains to you what it is that you touch with your fingers.

Nice.

And that’s because the camera detects the position of your finger and not a haptic screen. So we move this into a new dimension because you can work with it that way. Or if you think in mathematics of graphs, if you have five graphs on a X and Y axis, this is super hard to follow with your fingers. And what we do is we automatically associate a specific sound to each of those, say, five lines, so that if you follow with your finger one line, it gives you one sound.

Oh, nice.

And if you follow another line, it gives you another sound. And that helps you to distinguish the lines and follow the right line of any graph. And things like that that are super helpful to understand learning content.

Oh, definitely.

And what we’re just launching at the moment is what we call the Magic Ruler and the Magic Protractor and the Magic Compass where we have the camera detect a QR code which is on the ruler, and the system tells you exactly the measures, exactly the length of whatever item you want to measure because we just measure the distance between those QR codes or an angle or it even works for a compass. It’s things like that that are super important in education. And this system, the Tactonom Reader, provides all of that.

Oh, that’s awesome. And that’s something that’s been missing the whole time. It hasn’t really even been there or kind of thought of, so just amazing. What if I’m a teacher, am I able to kind of create my own content if maybe there’s something I want to teach that there isn’t already something available on Tactonom for? Is it something that I can create?

Absolutely you can. The idea is that the database that is owned by a non-profit organization called ProBlind, we work extremely closely with them, is that it’s a community to create content for blind and visually-impaired people. And that means you can create your own graphic, upload it into the system and share it with the whole world.

Oh, awesome.

And to make sharing easier, you can just take as a user of that database, which is for free, completely for free, you can automatically translate any of those graphics into 25 different languages using AI. It takes 10 seconds and you have, I don’t know, a graphic that has been created in Portuguese, you have that in English within 10 seconds and you can just use it. And that’s the way how we want to ensure that one day blind people have access to the same learning content as everybody else. That’s the mission.

Oh, that’s awesome. That is awesome. There’s a few different kind of models of the Tactonom available. What are the differences between them?

So we have one desktop system which we call Tactonom Reader. And that’s especially useful for libraries and where it’s really stationary, we don’t move it around. And we have a second system which we call Tactonom Reader Flex, which you can fold together and is more portable than the Tactonom Reader, so it’s easier to take it from classroom to classroom or take it home, and other than that has the same functionality as the Tactonom Reader.

And for us, Tactonom is a brand. It comes, by the way, from tactile and autonomy. That’s exactly what we try to achieve.

Nice.

And under that brand we have additional products that are not only systems that enable you to access graphical information, but you also have a swell paper machine which is called Tactonom Transformer. And we are bringing out another system by the end of the year, Tactonom Pro, which is another system altogether. So for us, it’s a brand that we have created, destined for removing barriers that blind people face in so many ways in their everyday life.

Oh, for sure. For sure. And just because you mentioned swell paper, and I know that can work as a great tool to go along with kind of Tactonom, can you tell our listeners what is swell paper and kind of how does it help?

Well, swell paper is a special paper which you can print in any laser printer, and the ink of the laser printer will react with the special paper and every black line or dot or information that you print onto that paper will swell up so that you can touch it with your fingertips.

It’s a great technology which has been around for a long time, which is super important because if you can’t touch anything, then it’s basically impossible to understand structures with your fingers at all, right? And that technology is widespread and very practical.

Yeah, And I love how you’ve integrated it in so that I can actually not just feel it, but then have the Tactonom tell me what my fingers are, what I’m feeling, where everything is in relation to that and give that kind of in space and everything else.

The magic is combining the sense of touch with hearing. You combine two senses, and we know the more senses you combine, the stickier they become to your brain. Sense of touch alone is not as good as sense of touch and hearing. And bringing those two senses together is just magic.

Yeah. Well, and I think you summed it up when you kind of said independently earlier, because normally if I had a swell paper or something tactile, someone else would be explaining what I was touching or I would be asking them questions, but be able to learn that on my own without having to have that other person is again something that just wasn’t there.

And it’s so important. I mean, if you think back when you were younger and in school or university, you never liked the situation where you had someone else, your parent or someone next to you explain things. They always know better. You always feel at a disadvantage. Very quickly you feel kind of ah, stupid. We just don’t like it.

Mm-hmm.

And being able to learn on your own independently at your own speed, that’s something which is important too. And the system tells you, “Yeah, this is right. No, need to do this again. Yes, that’s great.” And the great stuff about any system is it never becomes impatient with you, so you are allowed to make mistakes and you don’t have to hide them or cover them up. It’s just that learning has to be independent, otherwise it’s not fun and the learning success will be far lower.

Most definitely. Yep. Just removing that barrier of that can really, really help folks. Klaus, you probably have quite a few of these, but could you tell us a story about someone’s experience using Tactonom?

So what we always hear is, “Oh, if I had had that when I was in school then I could have.” And that is true. And what we see all the time is with very young children, that they start to like using their sense of touch. You’d be surprised how many blind people, even born blind people have not developed their full potential of their sense of touch.

And we always say it is so important that you like to use your sense of touch, because then you will learn to read braille, then you will spend time trying to understand things which will then, again, make sure that your brain develops and better captures the information. So the fun of using your fingers is super important.

And we had one quite interesting example of where we showed the floor plan of a person that turned blind two or three years ago, she moved to a different apartment that she had refurbished for it, and she was able to say, “Where do the walls go so I can find my ways around it?”

And she just didn’t realize that there was this one wall at that specific location where it was. And with the ability to read a floor plan, she suddenly understand, “Oh, that’s the setup. And if I had known, I would’ve been able to change that,” because it really doesn’t make any sense for her.

But we have so many occasions in, be it maths, be it even braille learning. With a Tactonom Reader you can be really creative. We’ve come up with an idea that you do not only address the analytical part of the brain, but work with what blind people are very good at, which is hearing. We had the idea to transform the braille alphabet into sounds so that by playing sounds to you, you would know this is an A, this is a K, this is an L, and things like that, which is fun, right?

And people suddenly say, “Wow, this is interesting. This is like morphing alphabet,” and think about differently about learning braille. And it’s things like that that is important. Address the strengths of blind people, which is hearing, which is touching, and become creative with it so that learning actually is fun and that it’s playful so that you spend more time trying to understand information which gets you into this positive cycle of spending more time, getting better at it, spending more time, getting even better at it, and so on. That’s where we need to get to.

And the Tactonom Reader is an assistive technology that helps you to do that and helps you learn in a playful, fun fashion at your own speed on your own, and gives you the ability to access huge amounts of different learning materials.

Well, and you can also learn right alongside your sighted counterparts, the other students and everything, you’re getting the same information just in a different way as opposed to maybe having to be in a special class or anything like that. You’re getting all that same information when they say, “Hey, we’re going to look at this graph, we’re going to look at this map, we’re going to look at this thing.” You’re accessing it, the same information as every other student in there, just in a little bit different way, but you’re still getting the same information. It’s not different or compromised in a way.

And I’m really glad that you said that, because if you think of learning formats that have been created for sighted people, things like gap text, multiple choice, in math you have pyramids, walls, snakes, what have you, all kinds of different learning formats that sighted people love to learn with because it’s fun and playful, these formats are not accessible to blind people today. With the Tactonom Reader, they are. And that means inclusive learning and teaching means you have the same learning materials, you have the same learning formats, and you can learn alongside with everybody else. That’s inclusion.

Yeah. For sure, for sure. And it benefits everyone in that entire classroom, from the teacher to every single student in there, so.

Absolutely.

Yep. I love that. And it’s not something that’s going to scare away the teacher either. Sometimes they can be almost fearful of, “Oh, am I going to mess this up? Is it too hard to use?” But it doesn’t sound like that’s the case in any way, shape, or form, because the tools are out there and as you make your own tools, you can share those with everyone else and just expand that network, so that is absolutely awesome.

And teachers, in an inclusive education settings, they always need to think about how do I involve a blind person? Now we have thousands of graphics. You just print them, you don’t have to buy them, you just print them. And the big problem that you’re facing today, what do I do with the blind learner in my class, is solved, right?

You can even say, “In August before the school year starts I’m going to print out all the most important graphics that I need for, say, biology or mathematics.” And you’re done. That problem that you always faced throughout the school year, “What do I give the blind person to so that we can learn together?” That’s solved. We’re helping the teachers to focus on teaching and not on creating graphics, which obviously is not their major task, right?

Most definitely. Most definitely. Klaus, if our listeners want to find out more about Tactonom and everything else that you guys offer, what’s a good way for them to do that?

The best way to do this is go to our website, www.tactonom.com, from Tactile and Autonomy. We do online demos on a regular basis in English obviously, and we’d be happy to show you what the system does.

We do these demos where we explain exactly why we do it, show you all that it can do, and then you can ask questions if you’re interested. And just see and hear what the system does is I think more important than hearing or us claiming what it’s able to do. That’s always the easy part. Take a look at it for yourself, and I’m very happy to show you all the details of it, including the database and where the information has come from and things like that.

Yeah. And listeners, I definitely-

So www-

I definitely recommend you go and take a look at it and kind of see, because we may have done a pretty good job of explaining it here, but it kind of, I don’t know, it’s easier than you even think, then I think we’ve even described it here as far as how it works, and then the doors that it can open for folks is pretty darn impressive.

Yeah. And we tested that with school children of the age of six, seven. They take three minutes to understand how it works and then they just work and play with it, right?

Yeah.

Or they playfully learn with it.

Oh, most definitely. And if you can make learning fun and trick those kids into learning stuff, that’s the best way to do it. But just you’re going to learn a whole lot more if you’re enjoying it and especially if you’re involved. And kind of like you said, the more you can do it independently, the more you’re going to retain that knowledge and the more you’re going to want to learn and be a part, so that is absolutely awesome.

Well, Klaus, I think, as I kind of said in the opener, when we came back from ATIA, we had a show where all our folks that went, what was something cool that you found? And quite a few of them definitely mentioned the Tactonom. So I really thank you for coming on the show and telling our listeners a little bit more about it.

And like I said, listeners, definitely go to the website and see a demo, get ahold of them because it’s a pretty cool and a pretty new idea to really solve a need and really help folks who are blind or visually impaired with learning just all kinds of graphic information. So Klaus, thank you again so much for coming on the show and telling us all about it.

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Do you have a question about assistive technology? Do you have a suggestion for someone we should interview on Assistive Technology Update? If so, call our listener line at (317) 721-7124. Send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org or shoot us a note on Twitter at INDATA Project.

Our captions and transcripts for the show are sponsored by the Indiana Telephone Relay Access Corporation, or InTRAC. You can find out more about InTRAC at relayindiana.com.

A special thanks to Nikol Prieto for scheduling our amazing guests and making a mess of my schedule. Today’s show was produced, edited, hosted, and fraught over by yours truly. The opinions expressed by our guests are their own and may or may not reflect those of the INDATA Project, Easterseals Crossroads, our supporting partners, or this host.

This was your Assistive Technology Update. I’m Josh Anderson with the INDATA Project at Easterseals Crossroads in beautiful Indianapolis, Indiana. We look forward to seeing you next time. Bye-bye.