Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Panel: Brian Norton, Josh Anderson, Belva Smith, Tracy Castillo. ATFAQ137 – Q1. Migrating from Windows to Mac with a screenreader, Q2. Smartphone accessibility choices, Q3. Could Windows Magnifier replace ZoomText, Q4. What is Louie Voice Control, Q5. Wildcard: Forecasting 2021 – product delays and assistive technology
——————- Transcript Starts Here ———————
Brian Norton:
Welcome to ATFAQ, Assistive Technology Frequently Asked Questions, with your host Brian Norton, Director of Assistive Technology at Easterseals Crossroads. This is a show where we address your questions about assistive technology, the hardware, software, tools and gadgets that help people with disabilities lead more independent and fulfilling lives. Have a question you’d like answered on our show? Send us a tweet with the hashtag ATFAQ. Call our listener line at 317-721-7124 or send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org. The world of assistive technology has questions and we have answers. And now let’s jump into today’s show.
Brian Norton:
Hello, and welcome to ATFAQ episode I37. My name is Brian Norton. I’m the host of the show and today we’re so happy that you’ve taken some time to tune in with us this week. We have a great lineup of assistive technology questions for you today. But before we jump in, just want to take a moment to go around the room, our Zoom room that is, and introduce the folks who are here sitting with me, Belva, Josh and Tracy. So Tracy, I’ll start with you. Tracy’s the end data manager and so Tracy, do you want to say hey to folks?
Tracy Castillo:
Yeah. Hey everyone. Thanks for listening in.
Brian Norton:
Excellent. And then also we have Belva Smith. Belva’s our vision team lead on our clinical assistive technology team. Belva you want to say, hey?
Belva Smith:
Hi, everybody.
Brian Norton:
And then we also have Josh. Josh Anderson. Josh is the manager of our clinical assistive technology program and also the popular host of Assistive Technology Update, one of our other podcasts here with Easterseals Crossroads and the INDATA Project. Josh, you want to say hi?
Josh Anderson:
Yeah. Hi everybody. Welcome back or if it’s your first time, welcome now.
Brian Norton:
Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. So for our new listeners, if you’ve just joined us this week, want to take a moment to just tell you a little bit about our show and how the show works. So we come across different feedback and come across various assistive technology questions throughout the week, and then we turn that into a show. So we have a listener line and a few different ways for you to get us questions. We’d love to hear from you as folks who are listening, you can call our listener line, that’s 317-721-7124. Send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org, or send us a tweet with the hashtag ATFAQ. Would love to hear from you. And again, without your questions, we really don’t have a show, so help be a part of it. If you’ve had something on your mind, a question that you wanted to ask, there are no dumb questions.
Brian Norton:
We take all questions, and so let us know. I’d love to hear from you and you can send us those, through again, that listener line, that email or through the hashtag ATFAQ. And if you’re looking to share our show with other folks, we have a variety of ways for you to do that as well. You can go to iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play Store, and you can go to our website. It’s atfaqshow.com. and find us there as well. Really, any place that you can find a podcast you can find us. So check us out. We’d love to hear from you. We’d love for you to be able to listen to our show. So without further ado, we’re going to kind of jump in-
Speaker 13:
To our first question.
Dan:
ATFAQ show, thank you very much for taking my call. Great show, great show. Anyway, my question is about learning my computer and I just got a new computer, Apple computer, MacBook Air, and I would like to ask you to show me other source, like book online or audio tape somewhere, that I can go and get the basic My Computer for the blind. And also while you’re on a topic, please let me know the difference between a PC, a Windows computers, as far as accessibility and the difference between the Windows computer, and a Mac computer. Is there any difference in term of concept, the basic concepts? So my mind can grab around that, I can learn easier as far as accessibility is concerned. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So thank you.
Brian Norton:
Excellent. So a couple questions tucked in there. The first thing is, is there a place to go to maybe an online resource or books on tape, to be able to learn Mac for persons who are blind or visually impaired? And so we’ll maybe tackle that question first.
Belva Smith:
First can we just say happy holidays and good health to Dan too?
Tracy Castillo:
Yes. Thank you, Dan.
Belva Smith:
Yeah, that was very warming. I appreciate that and we wish the same back to you. And yes, there are online… Apple has two Getting Started or Basics. I’m not exactly sure of what they’re called but the apple.com VoiceOver info guide. There’s a version one and a version two. And they’re easy to find. I could read the web page out but it’s kind of long to read out, but you can just Google search Apple VoiceOver and the first two that should pop up will be the two that are from Apple. There are plenty of YouTube videos about learning to use VoiceOver. And then also I want to make sure that you’re aware that, perkinslearning.org also has a great Getting Started with Mac VoiceOver that might actually be the one that I would start with if I were you.
Belva Smith:
I’ve actually used that one, watched that one and recommended that one. Because it is made by Perkins, it’s just real simple and easy to follow along. So that’s where I would guide you for online instructions on learning to use it. And I wish… I wish I had a good answer to your second part of your question but I don’t really have the answer that I know you’re looking for. I can say that, to me, the concept of the verbiage that is used between VoiceOver and JAWS and NVDA and stuff is very different. It’s almost the exact same for a visual user to go from Windows to Mac, because visually things look different. You click on the left side of the screen to close a window and you click on the right side of the screen to close a window. So the end result is the same but how you get there is different. And to me, the verbiage from VoiceOver compared to the Windows screen readers is just very different, but you’ll get there.
Belva Smith:
I mean, the transition can be made, and I promise you that the experience that you will have is really not much different from a sighted person going from Mac to Windows. I remember when I first was introduced to a Mac after having used nothing but Windows, it started things for me. I was very terrified and I really felt like I would never come to understand a Mac, but now I can sit down in front of either one and it just feels normal. It doesn’t matter. And I think you’ll find that with some practice you’ll feel the same way. So I didn’t mean to run on, but I understand your part B of your question and I know that my answer wasn’t good. So hopefully somebody else will have a better description of how it’s going to be different for you.
Josh Anderson:
Well, I’ll jump in there, Belva, and I think we have what? Two minutes left after that [crosstalk 00:08:30]. Just kidding. Just kidding. No, as far as places to find other information, you gave a lot of great ones there. Also AppleVis.com. They have a full beginner’s guide to using macOS with VoiceOver. So it can kind of walk you through some of those basics like you talked about, even with things just being in different places. So if you’re used to Windows you can find those, but also a lot of the key commands and other kinds of important stuff to really get you started. And then I don’t know if you’ve kind of been using different stuff on maybe a a PC before and just moved over to Mac, but AppleVis is a really good resource, not just for Mac, but all things Apple, so iOS apps, all those kinds of things also.
Josh Anderson:
And as far as the main difference, I would say that as far as built-in, Narrator has gotten a lot better, which is the built-in screen reader for Windows than it used to be in the past. But VoiceOver is a pretty good screen reader. It’s right up there with some of the ones that you can actually purchase such as JAWS and things like that. Of course, it’s different. It is a little bit different just because again, you’re using all those Mac keystrokes. I know one thing in Mac, you have a command key as opposed to the Alt and the Control key. I’ve been using a Mac for quite a while and when I try to remember keystrokes on a Windows computer, I get very confused on [inaudible 00:09:54]. So it’s one of those things that once you get the hang of it, it really kind of flows really well. So I’m glad that you’re moving on to Mac with us and hopefully you can find those resources and be able to get up and using it pretty quickly.
Brian Norton:
Yeah. I think a lot of the differences go back to what the companies are. You think about Microsoft, Microsoft is a software company or at least primarily a software company. And then they kind of rely on hardware manufacturers to be able to put computers together. So that’s why you find with Windows computers, there’s all sorts of different Windows computers out there, whether that’s a Dell or a Lenovo or an HP. Lots of different people who put Windows computers together and then Apple, they do everything themselves. And so as far as hardware is concerned, their hardware is consistent. They sell a couple of different versions of laptops, which I think does offer a little bit of a level of simplicity to their programs or to their software, if you will, because their computers are always the same.
Brian Norton:
They’re not using different components and those types of things, but as far as the ease of use, what I think Josh mentioned, there’s different things, different key strokes for different types of commands, to be able to do the same types of things you might do on Windows versus the Mac. Just different keystrokes to be able to do those kinds of things. As far as navigating, there is not a Start Menu on a Mac, it’s a Dock and you gotta be able to navigate to the Dock. I think some of the accessibility with VoiceOver is going to be different than what you might be used to using JAWS in a Windows environment simply because there’s a different… I don’t know. Maybe Belva, maybe you can fill in the gaps on this, but I just feel like it’s a different user experience when you’re using a screen reader from Windows to Mac.
Brian Norton:
Windows seems, or JAWS seems to be a little bit more intuitive as far as the controls that you go to. And once you get there, you can automatically start interacting with those… with whatever you’re on, whereas in the Mac, you got to navigate to where you are and then tell the VoiceOver software that you want to interact with whatever you land on. And so, there are some differences with that as well. But I got to tell you, I think things have come a long way. It’s not as complicated as it used to be. And so yeah, I think you can find a good experience in both environments, but if you’re moving to Mac, there’re certainly some great resources out there. And I think after a little bit, you’ll be able to pick up on it pretty quickly.
Belva Smith:
And I think for me especially… you hear the old saying of it’s whatever you learned with or started with that you tend to lean toward, I guess. I think for me, because I did learn screen reading through Windows, the language that is used in the window screen readers to me is more intuitive. I feel like when I use the VoiceOver with Mac, I have to think a little bit harder. I have to listen a little bit closer about what it is that I need to do to be able to do. For example, just entering text into an edit box. It can be very different in the Mac environment because I think it says something like, “To interact with this object you have to do this or you have to do that,” whereas Windows would just tell me, “Press enter and type in text,” or whatever.
Belva Smith:
But again, I think, you’ll find very quickly if you have used a Windows PC, you’ll find very quickly that the transition will happen pretty easily. And then you’ll probably find yourself in the situation where I am, where you can just comfortably sit down and maybe I’ve to think a little bit harder to do one versus the other, but be able to do both.
Brian Norton:
Yeah. I think that’s a good point, sitting down and after a little while, you’re going to be able to move back and forth between those two laptops and programs. I think maybe one of the things I would be a little concerned with at least initially is making sure whatever you had available on your Windows computer is going to be available on a Mac. Making sure that any of the peripheral items that you used, printer and other types of things, making sure that you get that all configured correctly on your Mac computer so that you’re able to access it.
Tracy Castillo:
Hey Belva. I’m kind of with you. [inaudible 00:14:40]. I don’t use screen readers or anything, but, I’m with you. When I went from a Windows PC to the Apple PC or Apple computer, the Mac, I was lost for a little while, but now I can switch back and forth and it’s fun. I just like the Search function. If I need to find something, I can just search it, whether I’m on a Windows one or the Mac PC.
Brian Norton:
And I’ll also encourage you, if you’re looking for a local provider… if what you find online isn’t working for you and you need a little bit more one-on-one training, whether that’s with VoiceOver or just help with the transition, making sure it’s your new Mac computer’s configure correctly, if you need some assistance, I would recommend you go out to our website, it’s eastersealstech.com and you could put a forward slash states on there. You can bring up the list of Assistive Technology Act Program in your state and be able to kind of then talk with them about who might be a local provider you can get in touch with to be able to provide the service. Maybe some additional training or configuration services that you might need for that.
Brian Norton:
So again, if you need something beyond whatever you might be able to find online, what we’ve recommended here on our show, or you just kind of feel like, “Man, I really want just a little bit more in-depth than what I’ve been able to get from the online resources,” you can go to eastersealstech.com/states, look up your local Assistive Technology Act Program and find out what type of service providers are in your area to be able to get additional training or additional support. What I would love to do is just to open this up to our listeners. If you’ve made the transition from Windows to Mac and you would have any additional advice for Dan, would love to be able to share that with him. Thank you, Dan, for the question.
Brian Norton:
Always appreciate how you send your questions in through our voicemail and hopefully we’ve given you some good information here, but if there’s additional information that we can share with Dan, we’d love to be able to do that. You can give us a call on our listener line. That’s 317-721-7124, or send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org, or send us a tweet with the hashtag ATFAQ. Love to hear from you. Thanks.
Brian Norton:
All right. So our next question is, “I have a client with CP. His speech isn’t effected. He has good control of one arm in hand, although a limited range of motion and some control of the other. He uses Dragon, a joystick mouse, sticky keys, and a computer keyboard for computer access. Anyways, he is in the market for a smartphone and has never used one before. Both Android phones and iPhones have built-in accessibility features. Which of the two do you think would work better for him? I don’t expect he will be using his smartphone for more than making telephone calls and, or texting. And so the question is which platform iOS or Android do you think would work better for him?”
Josh Anderson:
So a couple of different things to consider here. First of all, if this person is going to be working with the client, then I say go with what they know. If they know Android better, go with the Android, just because you’re going to be able to teach them better. You’re not going to be trying to learn something new yourself because really, especially if they’re just making phone calls and texting, those virtual assistants that are built-in are going to be able to do 90% of what you need. So that can be… I can’t say the one or my phone will go off, but the one for Apple or the one for Google.
Josh Anderson:
And you can set those up initially to completely and totally work by voice so that you can say like… this is probably going to actually happen, but, “Hey, Siri, send a text to so-and-so stating blah, blah, blah,” and it will actually do all that for you without ever having to touch it and it will walk you right through the steps as far as, “Hey, you want to send a text message to so-and-so that says this, do you want me to send it?” You say yes, and it goes right out there. I will say one thing that I really do like about the iPhone a little bit more is, if they want to dig deeper, it does offer full Voice Control, which can be really, really helpful.
Josh Anderson:
You can really control every single thing that you can see visually on the screen with your voice. You can bring up numbers or different kind of labels and then tell it what you want to do, even saying swipe or swipe down, double tap, all these different kinds of commands you can give it so that you can completely and totally access it. I don’t use Android as much, so I’m not positive if its voice control is quite as user-friendly. But again, if they’re just going to be making calls and sending text messages, I’d really say either one. You’re probably going to… depending on the Android phone, some of them are a little bit inexpensive, although iPhone does offer some different models now, including I think… I can’t remember what it’s called. The iPhone 12 mini, which is a little bit smaller so the person has… if their vision’s not really affected and a smaller screen is not a bad thing, I know there are a lot less expensive than some of the other models.
Josh Anderson:
Again, so I know it’s a really roundabout answer but it kind of depends. If screen size isn’t a problem… again, I am a fan of Apple because I use it a lot and it does have that full Voice Control so if they want to do a little bit more than just those two initial things, they’re going to have that availability to do it. But if we’re mostly just going to be making phone calls, sending text messages, even just sending emails and things like that, really either one of them when using that voice assistant’s going to be probably able to meet their needs very, very simply. Every once in a while they may need to access a screen a little bit to push a button or something like that but from what you tell me about the little bit of the upper body control that they still have, they should be able to kind of do whatever they might need.
Belva Smith:
So Josh, I agree with you, as the individual that is going to be working with this individual, I would encourage you to think about using something that you are very familiar with just because the more you know the better you will be able to assist them and just be there for support as they go along. However, a couple of things that come to my mind with this question, first of all, don’t assume that they will probably do nothing but make some phone calls and do some texting, because it has been my experience with many, many, many of my clients, and including Todd, my boyfriend, whom I encouraged to start using the iPhone, and he had never, as many of them have never even sent a text. All they’ve ever done is used a flip phone to make a phone call and receive a phone call. That’s it.
Belva Smith:
And they had no desire, totally afraid of a smartphone, but once they made that transaction, OMG. You can’t stop them. They do everything on the iPhone. And I have consumers all the time that will say to me, “I am so glad that you encouraged me and were patient with me while I made the transition to this phone because this phone has become so important to me. I do everything on it.” That is the words that I hear. But as a beginner, yeah, they may just want to use it for telephone calls and texting. And honestly, either one, either platform is going to allow them to do that verbally. For the most part, I would also suggest, or, encourage you to take a look at the Jitterbug smartphone. That is a phone… it’s a smartphone but basically developed for folks that are older or seniors but also a lot of individuals that are visually impaired find it very easy to use.
Belva Smith:
And it has some… Oh, what do I want to call them? Safety nets, I guess, to keep a person from perhaps getting lost or getting into areas that they may not be able to get themselves out of so easily. But again, it’s very affordable, slightly over a hundred bucks for the smartphone. There’s two versions of that by the way, there’s a flip phone and then there’s a smartphone. With the flip phone, you can also text and place calls verbally but you do it with an assistant. You basically have an operator assistance that will help you do that, but with the smartphone, you would just dictate your text the same way that you would on an iPhone or an Android. So that’s my thing is, just go with whatever feels comfortable for you. If you could get a hold of your local Assistive Technology Act… Tracy, I’m kinda probably stepping in on you here, but if you could get their hands on the two or three different phones so that they could feel the difference, because really how it feels in the hand does have a lot to do with it too.
Belva Smith:
And also I wanted to point out lastly and then I’ll stop. But with the iPhone, the most current version, you can actually use a Bluetooth mouse with that thing. And I noticed that your individual here does have some use of their limbs, so their arm and hand, so they may be able to use the mouse to navigate around on the phone as well. I have found that to be pretty easy to use, especially for individuals that are kind of shaky in the hands. So yeah, that’s my… or my advice. Go with what you know the most about and try to get their hands on the different options. And also, don’t be excited or don’t be shocked when they start saying that they want to do more than send a text or make a phone call because I believe it will happen.
Tracy Castillo:
Right. I’m going to say, I hope she or he is using an iPhone because, one, you do have the Bluetooth accessibility with the mouse. You even have the Voice Control that’s in there as well so if you did start losing more mobility, you can turn on that. I loved my iPhone and I’d made the switch a few years back and now I just… I kind of get complicated on the Android devices. There’s too many different configurations [inaudible 00:25:44] but I found that the iPhone itself is easy to learn. And I’ve seen that happen several different times, different members of my family when we thought, “Well, no, they’re not going to be able to use an iPhone.” And they got on the iPhone and started doing more on the iPhone than they were doing on the Android phone. It was much easier for them to figure out, so those are my thoughts.
Brian Norton:
Well, and I’ll also just piggyback on something that you mentioned, Belva, don’t limit yourself to iOS or Android. There are other phone systems. You mentioned Jitterbug, there are other phone systems that may provide just as good or maybe even better access for this particular individual and contacting your State AT Program, they might be able to help direct you to some of those other phones that might exist. You can find out who those folks are by going to eastersealstech.com/states and finding your local Assistive Technology Act Program. And then Belva you mentioned the Bluetooth, Tracy, you mentioned it as well. I think everything that that person is currently using, Dragon is very comparable to Voice Control on an iOS device. Bluetooth mouse, there are Bluetooth joysticks that you can connect to an iPhone to be able to then interact with it that way.
Brian Norton:
The only thing that doesn’t make sense is the sticky keys. You can’t really do sticky keys because it’s an onscreen keyboard and they don’t have that, I don’t think, built into iOS, but really, the solutions he’s currently using for computer access I know are available on iOS. I’m sure that there’s probably comparable accessibility options within the Android system for those things as well. And so I think you might find that either Android or iPhone or even something that’s different, a different type of phone, might have the control or the access that they’re looking for. I’ll just open this up to our listeners. If you have a preference between Android or iPhone, for a situation that’s being described here, love to hear from you. You can give us a call on our listener line. That’s 317-721-7124, or send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org. Love to hear from you. Thanks.
Brian Norton:
All right. So our next question is, “Is it possible for me to stop using ZoomText now that Windows [crosstalk 00:28:09] updated the Windows Magnifier? Thoughts? What are the differences between the two products?”
Josh Anderson:
I just wanted to start with saying anything’s possible.
Tracy Castillo:
I agree. Honestly, when they started doing the new stuff with the magnification on the Windows operating system, those are the computers that we most give away and we like to show everybody the free stuff. We were really impressed. I’m not sure about the clarity. I mean, is it as clear as ZoomText? I’m not sure about that, but I know that we had fun adjusting the size of the mouse and the icons and stuff. Oh, and you can also change the color of the mouse. Alvin who gives away a lot of our computer sets… Every lady seems to want a purple mouse or a pink mouse, about the size of my thumb [inaudible 00:28:59].
Belva Smith:
So what’s the difference? That question is very similar to, what’s the difference between the Ford F-150 and the Ford 350? I mean, the differences are very… they very much are there. And can you give up ZoomText just because Windows has done all these magnificent enhancements in their visual area? I don’t know, because I don’t know what your needs are with ZoomText. I mean, are you just looking to have a bigger pointer and a different color pointer, or are you relying heavily on ZoomText for the other features that they have such as the App Reader? To me, a lot of the folks that I work with do use the App Reader and that can be, mimicked, I guess, is the word I’ll use, in Windows with their ability to provide some screen reading but is it as user-friendly or is it as robust? I don’t think so.
Belva Smith:
I think Microsoft has done an amazing job at making sure to make their product accessible for folks with some visual impairment but I don’t think that they’re there enough for us to say, “You know, I don’t think we need ZoomText anymore.” Now, what I will say is for the folks… as like Tracy was mentioning, for the folks that maybe don’t have access to get the ZoomText software, then absolutely the things that are included in Windows can be very helpful. But again, are they enough to say that ZoomText is ready to go wayside? I don’t think so. I think if they continue to develop their visual enhancements the way that they have, probably will at some point become a tougher question than it is right now-
Tracy Castillo:
[crosstalk 00:31:23] and just to piggyback on that one Belva, it should be built-in. That stuff should be built-in and it should be accessible for anybody and everyone.
Belva Smith:
Absolutely.
Brian Norton:
Well, and I think a lot of companies, Mac, or Apple and Windows, I mean, they have to look at accessibility in their products, right? We’re all getting older. Baby boomers are getting older. The folks who buy their software are starting to experience vision loss and other needs, and so they have put an emphasis on building in more and more accessibility within their products. And as far as ZoomText is concerned for me, it depends. Are you using just the magnifier? Well, if you’re just using the magnifier, probably you can probably get by with the built-in stuff, but if you’re using the magnifier reader, well, the reader part’s completely not there for the Windows Magnifier built into the Windows system. And so again, yeah, I think it goes back to what are you using it for? Because there’s also some magnification features that are specific to ZoomText that aren’t found, so if you want to set up certain zones or monitor some area of your screen, you can’t do that with the built-in magnifier.
Brian Norton:
But I think for the majority of the time, you might be able to get by if you’re just using… doing basic computer stuff, surfing the web, answering emails, doing other types of word processing types of documents. You probably can get by with it. I mean, it’s going to do a great job for you.
Belva Smith:
Windows [crosstalk 00:32:46] hasn’t incorporated the focused enhancement, the cursor… No, they have the cursor enhancement.
Brian Norton:
Right.
Belva Smith:
But have they the focus enhancement? I don’t think so.
Josh Anderson:
I’m not a 100% sure but I think you guys all kind of hit it on the head. It all depends on what you’re using it for. For the longest time… and I’ve worked with folks in the past to… really, we had to go with ZoomText because we needed the cursor enhancements and the pointer enhancements and that’s it. And it was hard to justify $500 because I need a bigger cursor and I just couldn’t get it in Windows. So now that it does have that… And they’re really putting some major changes in it, but Brian you’re right. I mean, if they need the full on reader, I got to say, you got to kind of stick with ZoomText. And it depends on the programs and I think some of it is a little bit… They’re getting there, but I mean, you can hover the mouse over things and have it read to you using just magnifier now.
Josh Anderson:
It doesn’t always work. It’s not perfect, but it’s new. And if they fix that then I would have to say that maybe it can even get you further away from ZoomText if you don’t need the full-on reader components in the… smoothing isn’t quite there so if you’re at a higher magnification level, you’re probably going to have some kind of block text. It’s not going to be quite as smooth as it would be with ZoomText but again, it’s built in so I mean, there’s a difference of… a very large price difference there, if you can get away with it but really for this person’s question, I mean, if it said, “I use three times magnification and cursor enhancements and pointer enhancements,” yeah. You can probably get away from using it and then maybe do everything you need with Magnifier nowadays.
Brian Norton:
Right.
Belva Smith:
Yeah. I think, that that’s the perfect answer there because it really does matter what it is that you’re using ZoomText for. Also, I got to say a lot of the folks that I work with that use ZoomText want to do the color inversion and stuff like that and yes, you can start to do that with Windows now, but is it equal to ZoomText? No, I’m sorry. It’s not there yet, but again, I think it will eventually get there. I remember years ago, we used to have to say, “Hey, if you need a screen reader but you can’t get JAWS and you can’t afford JAWS well, then you’ve got these free options that you can go to,” but with magnification, that was never the answer.
Belva Smith:
With the magnification you really had your stability, your reliability with ZoomText, and then you had some unstable reliability with MAGic, but that was it. There was no free options. Well now, thanks to Microsoft doing what they’ve done, we do have a free option but is it everything it needs to be? Probably not at this point, but is it everything that it needs to be for some people? Absolutely. I just did a [inaudible 00:35:45] a week or two ago and I showed the lady ZoomText and, oh my gosh, it made her dizzy. She got sick. She didn’t like it, but I showed her the few things that we could do with Windows and she was elated, “Oh my gosh, this is magic,” she said, “because this is what I need.” So in her case, yeah, Windows was all she needed.
Brian Norton:
And [crosstalk 00:36:10] you did mention to her that it’s not magic because-
Belva Smith:
It’s not magic.
Josh Anderson:
It’s not magic [crosstalk 00:36:14]-
Brian Norton:
… because MAGic was another… was a different screen magnifier software a while ago that Freedom Scientific had put out. But yeah… Just had to say that. Well, hey, I would love to open this up to folks. If you have made a transition from ZoomText to the Windows Magnifier letting us know what your experiences are or if you have an opinion just on this question would love to hear from you as well. Our phone number is 317-721-7124 or you can send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org. Love to hear from you. Thank you so much.
Brian Norton:
So our next question is, “Have you guys tried Louie Voice Control and what’s the difference between this app and TalkBack?”
Josh Anderson:
Oh so you ask about differences. So TalkBack, for those people who don’t know is your screen reader, I guess you’d call it on an Android phone. And Louie is an app that kind of runs over the top of it, but not only will you get that voice feedback, but also allows for voice control. And I have not used it as I’ve kind of said on the show, I don’t use Android as much, so I haven’t really had the chance to play with it but I am looking forward to maybe borrowing one of our devices and put it on there and at least try and to get a little bit more acquainted with it. But really from what I can tell is, again, you’re not just getting… Most of the time you get your voice feedback and you interact with the screen, your swipes, taps, those kinds of things, to get information off of the screen and get to what you need, whereas with this over the top, after you have something read to you, you can say reply, delete, all these different kinds of things and have that stuff done for you.
Josh Anderson:
From what I see, it’s supposed to work in most other apps and just kind of work as an overlay. So it could a great accommodation for folks because I know… and Belva, I think you kind of mentioned this earlier just about folks using smartphones, especially if you’re visually impaired, learning those swipes and taps and all that is the hardest part of it. It really and truly is. Once you get the hang of it, it’s nothing and it’s second nature but to really remember, “Oh, do I double tap here? Do I swipe up? Do I swipe down? Do I take three fingers and move them in a circular formation? What exactly do I do to get to what I need?” If you can just intuitively say what it is you want, then that can make a huge difference.
Brian Norton:
And I’ll mention, I don’t think it’s just for visually impaired users. I think as a standalone product, it acts like Voice Control on the iPad., from what I’ve read, [crosstalk 00:38:46] allowing you to have a lot more control. It goes way beyond the personal assistant, right? You can actually… instead of doing those one or two or three things you can do within an app with a voice assistant, now you can do everything just like you would I believe with Voice Control. Is that right?
Josh Anderson:
As far as I can tell. And yeah, really, the only reason I mentioned the vision was because they asked for the difference between it and TalkBack one.
Brian Norton:
Sure.
Josh Anderson:
TalkBack most of the time, if you’re using that, it’s probably with a visual impairment. There are some print disabilities they can assist as well, though.
Belva Smith:
Right. And TalkBack, as you said, Josh, TalkBack is going to be your screen reader. That’s going to give you the auditorial information for whatever is being displayed on the screen. And Louie is acting as your assistant, meaning it’s going to help you perform an action. Now I have a perfect example that I would love to be able to try Louie in except it’s in the Apple environment and not the Android. And it’s my understanding that Louie only works on Android. Is that correct, Josh?
Brian Norton:
That’s correct.
Belva Smith:
Okay.
Josh Anderson:
That’s correct.
Belva Smith:
Okay. Because, again, referring back to Todd, he is using an app now that allows him to open his gates, the storage unit, but it requires a double tap and he can get Siri to open the app and then of course he can swipe to get to the, Tap to Open, but there’s no way to make it happen without him physically doing the double tap. So I would love to see if Louie can actually assist him with that, just out of curiosity. [crosstalk 00:40:37]-
Brian Norton:
Hey Belva I’d be-
Josh Anderson:
Hey Belva, have you turned on Voice Control in the Apple [crosstalk 00:40:42]-
Belva Smith:
I’ve not tried the Voice Control so I guess I should do that huh?
Brian Norton:
Try that.
Belva Smith:
Yeah.
Josh Anderson:
Yeah. Give that a shot, you might be able to just say, “Double tap, open,” and-
Belva Smith:
Okay.
Josh Anderson:
… Hopefully, maybe it can do it for you. I’m not sure. I’ve played around with a lot on the iPhone and it’s usually pretty good, but every once in a while you can sit there and stare at exactly what you want and tell it and it won’t do it. Now you can bring up numbers and stuff. So you can say like, “Tap three,” or something. That’s probably not going to help Todd though because [crosstalk 00:41:11]-
Belva Smith:
No.
Josh Anderson:
… be able to see those numbers when they come up but [crosstalk 00:41:13]-
Brian Norton:
You should be able-
Josh Anderson:
… but if you know what the button says that might kind of [crosstalk 00:41:16]-
Brian Norton:
You should be able to say just open button and it should be able to click on that.
Belva Smith:
We’ll definitely look into that. And then also I think it’s important, I’ve had many, many a client over the years say, “Well, why can’t I talk to my computer?” They want the computer to talk to them and for them to be able to talk back to it. So they want that auditorial information and the voice control, and we know that that’s tricky, especially with our computers. It’s getting there with our tablets and our phones, but it still has a ways to go. So Josh, I will definitely be tuning into your other show to hear more about this because I like all of us, I’m an iPhone user so I don’t have a lot of experience with the Android environment. So I’m always interested to hear how the Android environment is different and the features that are available within it.
Brian Norton:
And Josh, just from a practical standpoint. This is a separate screen reader from TalkBack. You don’t have to have TalkBack installed or is it all its own product or do you have to have TalkBack to kind of… They’re kind of companion products? Do you know?
Belva Smith:
No, they’re not. I don’t think they’re companion products.
Brian Norton:
I don’t think so either.
Belva Smith:
And I think it’s important to remember that Louie is a voice control, not a screen reader, right?
Brian Norton:
Right. But it does come with some verbosity settings. And so I think it does give you some verbal feedback about what it’s doing and where it’s going. It was made by a person who was visually impaired. The person who put this program together. So it’s made for folks with visual impairments but it can be used by anybody.
Belva Smith:
And is it free?
Brian Norton:
There are some in-app purchases and I’m not exactly sure what those are, but I think you can automatically install it. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there are probably in-app purchases for certain things as far as a cost is concerned. Well, I’d love to open this up to our listeners if you have used Louie, would love to be able to hear from you. Our phone number is 317-721-7124 or send us an email at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org. Love to hear from you what your experience has been. Thanks so much.
Speaker 13:
And now it’s time for the wildcard question.
Brian Norton:
All right. So our next question is the wildcard question, and this is where Belva has a question that we haven’t had any time to prepare for. So what do you got for us today, Belva?
Belva Smith:
Well, knowing that we’re wrapping up the year, because you said, I think, this will actually be released first part of 2021. We hope that the clouds are going to go away and we’re going to be full of sunshine and 2021 is going to be all different than 2020 has been. Recently I’ve noticed a pretty significant deficit in being able to get devices. Even simple, just a computer. I mean, it’s taking weeks and weeks, upwards of six to eight weeks, to get not a specially-built computer. Just a standard computer. So my question for you is, I guess twofold, what do you think 2020 is going to bring as far as technology goes? Are we going to continue to see the delay in getting products? And what do you think 2021 might be? How do you think 2021 might be different with assistive technology? Do you think we’ll see lots of new devices or hardly nothing at all?
Brian Norton:
I think [crosstalk 00:45:19] that’s a great question. I think that’s a great question. I think a lot of the deficit that we’re seeing with technology right now is because schools needed to purchase lots of laptops for distance education, tablets, and other types of things. And so I think a lot of things have been sold out for a long time. I know to purchase an iPad for our INDATA program here, it takes four weeks to get, and I’m sure that’s probably even longer for a laptop, and so hopefully that stuff will get better. Hopefully they have enough computers for the students that they have and they can be able to kind of work with those for a little while, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s going to [inaudible 00:45:57] for the short term, be some sort of a deficit with those computers.
Brian Norton:
As far as assistive technology is concerned, I would venture a guess that… Yeah, I don’t know. People have probably had a lot of time to think about it. Think about new features and probably develop new features. I know a lot of those software companies and accessibility and assistive technology companies are struggling at this point. I mean, as far as getting their products out and there just haven’t been… there haven’t been any trade shows or haven’t been a whole lot of information about ways to get new stuff out to folks. Maybe we’ll see some new features based on a lot of the new things that we’re dealing with, distance communication, distance support, other types of features that might be included in some of those products.
Josh Anderson:
I think I agree with Brian, I think the computer thing will get better, because I mean not only were the schools kind of doing that but you had a pretty big supply chain breakdown too because some of those factories closed, some of the intermediate or in-between factories closed. Computers aren’t made in one place. Their chips are made here, their rams made here, their other stuff’s made here and then it’s assembled in a whole another country. So during a pandemic that really cuts that down and that wasn’t just computers. There’ve been people I’ve talked to on the podcast who’ve had ideas and who’ve had really great technology they’ve made, but it hasn’t been able to be made yet just because the same thing, that supply chain just completely and totally broke down. And when you have international commerce, that’s just something that’s going to happen. [inaudible 00:47:29].
Josh Anderson:
As far as new assistive technology, I’m sure there’ll be all kinds of great new stuff. I think accessibility, web accessibility, stuff like that’s going to be huge because I think that was kind of put to the test as more and more people had to use computers from education to work, to really everything went remote, to seeing your doctor is not in-person anymore. So if your telemedicine stuff isn’t accessible, well, you got to think about that and how do we work with that? But then also all the technology bit there is, is going to continue. Machine learning, all that stuff has a huge ways that it can help with assistive technology, even like the newest version of iOS, if you think. VoiceOver could pretty much read text. Well, VoiceOver can read pictures because it’s got machine learning in there so it can look at it and say, “Oh, that’s a woman holding a sign that says such and such.” It used to be able to just be no text, no text, no text.
Josh Anderson:
And that’s not from programming. That’s from it learning and learning on its own. So I think as those things continue to get better and machine learning gets a little bit smarter, there’s a lot of people that are using those kind of things for assistant technology and for accessibility. I think as long as that keeps happening we’re going to see all kinds of cool new stuff and probably more wearables because those are kind of the big thing that everybody wants something they can wear. So I’m sure we’ll see some of that stuff and maybe self-driving cars, which would be just the most amazing accommodation for folks. It would scare me to death. I have a stick shift. I don’t even want automatic transmission because I think that’s just cheating. So I won’t let my car drive me. That just scares the crap out of me.
Josh Anderson:
In fact, I don’t even like riding with other people because I drive so much, I get frightened, but for individuals with disabilities, I mean, let’s not lie. A self-driving car would be an incredible accommodation just to be able to help them, I guess, get to work from home now. I don’t know. We’ll see. We’ll see. But I don’t know, hopefully 2021 holds some really great things and we’re not looking back going, “[inaudible 00:49:34], remember how great 2020 was? This year’s terrible.” So let’s hope. Let’s just hope that’s not the case.
Brian Norton:
I am sure we’re not going to be thinking that.
Tracy Castillo:
I was kind of thinking about this a little bit over the night. When I was a young and a little girl, I used to look at the TV and think, “I wish I could reach in there and grab that toy.” And I was thinking about this yesterday because now I can. I’ve got one of these 3D printers and I just put things in, [inaudible 00:50:03] and I can pull it out. And if you think about the 3D printers, it kind of looks like my old style TV. But new stuff, you know what? We talked about this for something else, there’s a lot of people at home and a lot of brains working. I think we’re going to see some innovation. I mean, I was looking on… I read an article and it was talking about the most downloaded apps. Do you guys know what the most downloaded app was this year? It was Zoom [crosstalk 00:50:33] followed by TikTok. [crosstalk 00:50:35] followed by TikTok.
Tracy Castillo:
So I just think we’re going to see more innovation. I hope so. Goodness. I think there’s some people right there at home that are able to make them brains work and get some cool things out there.
Belva Smith:
Well, I think you’re right about that, Tracy. I think there probably are some magnificent brain sitting at home, coming up with fabulous ideas, but I am concerned that the production or the development will be delayed. One of the things that I had to explain to a VR counselor, the delay in our hardware was a Perkins Brailler. We’ve waited like 12 weeks on a Perkins Brailler, which has no computer, nothing. It’s just metal and buttons but… metal and plastic. But yeah, it took us almost, I think, 12 weeks to get that. So I am concerned, that we’re going to feel the deficit of the products and the stuff just not being able to be developed. However, with that being said, I think that we will see things develop with our phones and our tablets because I think it’s just easier to produce new apps than it is maybe to produce a new hardware device.
Belva Smith:
I’ve been doing this a really, really long time. I’ve seen some magnificent changes in the technology since I’ve entered this area. And I guess I am just… I am anxious to see that new aha thing. That one thing that’s just going to really make me go, “Aha.” I haven’t seen it in a while. So hopefully we’ll see it for 2021.
Brian Norton:
Well, that’s a good point you bring up Belva, just with the delays in getting equipment. We’re dealing with folks with disabilities. A lot of times those disabilities are degenerative in nature. And so even the smallest amount of delay in being able to get somebody something, they might not be able to use it by the time they get it and so we got to be mindful and hopefully, hopefully things will improve with whatever that… with those delays. Hopefully things will come together as far as the production and those types of things to be able to get things back on track to where they where.
Josh Anderson:
Well, I think another thing that will kind of help improve that is, I mean, you even think of here, a lot of these companies and places, they might not have a physical address right now because everybody’s working from home, so just figuring out how that works, but think how much better… I mean, I guess some of us we’re kind of almost always remote because we’re out in the community, but think of how much better some folks are doing now that they’ve gotten a little bit more used to working from home and things like that. So hopefully that’ll kind of help at least cut that down a little bit. I mean, with the Perkins Brailler, who knows? Maybe one of those components has to come from, gosh knows where, and can only get here by boat. And those boats are all shut down or who knows? By cruise ship, maybe they travel by [crosstalk 00:53:54] cruise ship. Those are all [inaudible 00:53:55] down.
Josh Anderson:
It’s so hard to tell, but yeah. And Belva, I’ve run into the same thing where I’ve had the VR counselors just call, “We ordered this stuff six weeks ago, why don’t they have it?” I’m like, “Because I don’t have it.”
Belva Smith:
Right.
Josh Anderson:
And I called the vendor and they’re like, “Yeah. Well, when we ordered three weeks later it was discontinued,” or they said they didn’t have it or all kinds of issues like that. And I mean, I give a lot of credit to UPS, FedEx, DHL, all those different… the mail service because they got pounded. I mean, everybody ordered everything online, even folks that weren’t getting things online. So they saw that big increase in need and stuff. So I mean, it was the perfect storm of a lot of different kinds of things but as those get worked out, I think we’ll see those numbers come back to somewhat normal, maybe, hopefully. And Brian, like you said, I figure every kid has got to have an iPad or a Chromebook or a computer by now.
Brian Norton:
Right. Right.
Belva Smith:
So next year at this time we’ll have this same question only it will be, “What happened in 2021?”
Josh Anderson:
And we’re having champagne.
Belva Smith:
Okay.
Josh Anderson:
[inaudible 00:55:00].
Brian Norton:
That’s right. An actual in-person meeting would be nice.
Tracy Castillo:
That would be fun.
Belva Smith:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tracy Castillo:
Yeah.
Josh Anderson:
Oh my [crosstalk 00:55:07], I forgot what those were. That’s right. We could all be in the studio together.
Brian Norton:
That’s right. That’s right. Hey, I’d just love to open this up to our listeners. If you have any feedback on this particular wildcard question, love to hear what your thoughts are on the availability of equipment and anything that you might think would be new coming up in 2021. I’d love to hear from you. Also, if you have other questions, if you have any questions that you would like answered on our show, love to hear from you. You can give us a call on our listener line. That’s 317-721-7124 or send us a tweet with the hashtag ATFAQ or email us at tech@eastersealscrossroads.org. Without your questions, we don’t have a show so be a part of it. I want to give an opportunity for the folks on our panel to say goodbye to everybody. So first Belva, do you want to say goodbye to folks?
Belva Smith:
Yeah. Everybody stay healthy and let’s pray for a better 2021 than we’ve had 2020.
Brian Norton:
Excellent. And then Tracy.
Tracy Castillo:
Hi everyone. And again, thank you Dan for sending in your questions.
Brian Norton:
Excellent. And then Josh.
Josh Anderson:
Bye everybody.
Brian Norton:
Well, thanks everybody. Thank you for being a part of the show and we’ll talk to you guys later. Take care. Bye-
Speaker 13:
And it seems like every week we have at least one blooper. So here you go.
Belva Smith:
I feel like [inaudible 00:56:17] miss Gabby.
Brian Norton:
That’s good.
Josh Anderson:
Love it. [crosstalk 00:56:19].
Brian Norton:
That’s after Tracy introduced herself.
Tracy Castillo:
She’s so extra. Extra, extra.
Brian Norton:
Does anybody know where Tracy went?
Josh Anderson:
It was not my day to watch her.
Brian Norton:
Okay. Tracy.
Speaker 13:
Information provided on Assistive Technology FAQ does not constitute a product endorsement. Our comments are not intended as recommendations nor is our show evaluative in nature. Assistive technology FAQ is hosted and produced by Brian Norton, gets editorial help by Josh Anderson and Belva Smith and receive support from Easterseals Crossroads and the INDATA Project. ATFAQ is a proud member of the Accessibility Channel. Find more of our shows at wwwaccessibilitychannel.com.